|
Post by Pastor Michelle on Aug 7, 2012 20:24:31 GMT -5
From the moment Jesus’ birth was proclaimed, his life was threatened. Why was he such a threat to Herod and the established government?
|
|
|
Post by Pastor Michelle on Aug 20, 2012 10:16:36 GMT -5
So last night at Cafe we talked about how Jesus was a threat to Satan, so it's a given that he was a threat from day one. But, I want to reflect on the power struggle inherent in the idea that a new King had been born. Herod probably thought he would loose his job! All of us get a little worried when we think our job and/or life as we know it is at risk.
|
|
|
Post by nitrorichfire on Aug 24, 2012 10:16:30 GMT -5
King Herod was not living or following the teachings of GOD and the Bible, just like our government today.
|
|
|
Post by Pastor Michelle on Aug 28, 2012 12:56:56 GMT -5
here's a follow up question: is our government threatened by our faith like Herod was threatened by Jesus? Hmmmm... without spending too much time contemplating this, my gut reaction is that they should be but they aren't - many of the individuals in our government (from both parties) claim they are part of the Body of Christ but I'm not convinced they actually live as part of it. And I am not convinced the rest of the Body (us) live like we should either. We aren't as scary as Jesus was! haha
|
|
|
Post by csobell on Aug 30, 2012 17:22:41 GMT -5
Not sure if our government has the time or public interest to be threatened by Jesus - voters, yes, but not Jesus. As we blend our culture to be more generic, I suspect that most politicians know that in order to get anything done... they have to get elected - I'm certain that I would do the same...if you aren't willing to do what it takes to get elected, politics is a spectator sport - an expensive one. As to whether they live like Christians ought to - I'm really uncomfortable with judging what we can see as evidence of our christianity - I'm a sinner and while I'm not fond of publicly confessing my shortcomings - I am willing to share how grateful I am that he keeps forgiving me. Sometimes I wonder if we don't spend too much time pointing out how Christians should live and too little time admitting that the only reason any of is getting any better is because He gives us the strength to avoid sin or removes the temptations. Only God knows if people outside the church are any better/worse than me, but I know that he's crazy about me and he won't be any less crazy about me if a billion more people accept him for who He is.
|
|
|
Post by Pastor Michelle on Aug 30, 2012 18:20:58 GMT -5
Great answer Chris. I agree that we aren't qualified to judge others and I fear I may have leaned toward that in my previous post. I think what I was really trying to get at is that Jesus was a whole lot more radical than we are. So I think he's potentially more threatening to the establishment than we are. on the other hand -- your other post references the idea that it might be the way the church has portrayed Jesus that becomes threatening to people. I think this idea has merit as well.
|
|
|
Post by kingdomseeker on Sept 4, 2012 9:31:37 GMT -5
I did a study on the word judge and its forms a while back and was surprised at what I found. I would like to share a part of that study as it speaks to the problem of postmodernism in our culture.
James writes about wrong judgments: James 2:4, 4:11, 4:12 Paul writes about judging fellow believers and unbelievers: 1st Corinthians 15:11-12 speaks of judging the immoral person inside the church with expulsion as a result. 1st Corinthians 6:2 speaks of God’s people judging the world. 1st Corinthians 6:3 speaks of not only judging angels but judging the things of this life as well. 1st Corinthians 6:5 Paul chastises those at Corinth for being unable to judge rightly.
So where does this idea of thou shalt not judge come from? It is very possible that this idea came from Matthew 7:1 where we hear Jesus exclaim, “Do not judge or you too will be judged.” If like many in our postmodern politically correct culture we stop at this injunction and do not read it in the context of the pericope we to can come away with the impression that we are not to judge. However a quick perusal of the following passages clearly shows that this is not a command not to judge but instructions on how to judge rightly. Jesus cautions us to remove the plank out of our own eye, and then we will see clearly to remove the speck from our brother’s eye. Again Jesus warns 6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.” (7:6) In order not to give dogs what is sacred and cast our pearls before swine we must be able to judge others as such. The concept of righteous judgment is writ large throughout Scripture. It hasn’t been until recently in our postmodern culture that this idea of not judging has come to the forefront. Jesus says that we will know them by their fruit. (Matthew 7:20) we are to judge others by their fruit. Interestingly enough this comes on the heels of the 7:1 passage. This idea of not judging plays into the hands of the postmodernist’s concept of relative truth and tolerance. I believe that this is why it sounds so tolerant to take Matthew 7:1 out of context. Unfortunately for the church this has infiltrated its ideology and for some has even taken up residence with doctrine. Some are eisegetical in their approach to Scripture and as such have opened up a possible inroad into the church for the supposed legitimacy of divorce, abortion, homosexuality etc. But that is another topic. Suffice it to say we are to judge rightly the fruits of others and lovingly confront those who are not abiding by God’s word in their conduct.
|
|
|
Post by csobell on Sept 6, 2012 11:46:57 GMT -5
very interesting - and I agree and because this kind of judging is rightfully as private as possible, no one outside the church (and most of us inside the church) are aware that it's going on. The point I was trying to make is that I don't feel qualified judging any politician or public figure - because I don't know anything but the public personna, and because I'm not called or trained to do it. Herod's being threatened was based on the sentiment that Jesus was the Messiah and King of the Jews - that shouldn't be a problem for anyone that knows about the way he'll be coming back.
|
|
|
Post by kingdomseeker on Sept 7, 2012 12:19:26 GMT -5
Would public persona include the fruit Jesus speaks of? For training we turn to the Word of God. If the Word of God says that homosexuality is wrong and our culture says it is right we must make a judgment which is correct. They both may be wrong but they both cannot be right. The Word of God trains us to see our culture through the eyes of what God has revealed to us in his Word. This shows the importance of being in God’s Word daily, fellowshipping with others of the faith, worshiping and discussing these issues with others. That is why I like the Café!
|
|
|
Post by Pastor Michelle on Sept 8, 2012 13:44:38 GMT -5
recently i read something about the difference between truth and 'real' - this was helpful to me because I realized that while there is one truth there are many realities. What I mean is that while I believe the Gospel is the one one truth - I believe that the 'real' comes in many forms - for example - one persons real experience on God may happen in a traditional worship space, while another's may happen in the quiet solitude of the top of a mountain. In fact, real experiences of God can happen in many ways throughout ones life. I'm wondering if this relates to our ongoing conversations - where we agree and disagree - so if we can't know what that persons real experience is - how can we judge them? This may not make total sense... it's hard to describe in words.
|
|
|
Post by kingdomseeker on Sept 8, 2012 20:11:59 GMT -5
What it seems like you are alluding to is subjective and objective realities. A possible problem with your proposition is that the Real by nature must be true and this truth must be objective not subjective. For instance God either exists or He doesn't. One of these two propositions is objectively true. Now on the other hand you may like vanilla and I may like chocolate. In our postmodern world many say that each of these are truths for the individual. The problem with taking that stand is that these "truths" lie in the realm of subjectivity. In other words they are mere opinions not truths. All is not lost however. It is objectively true from the time we stated the propositions through out all eternity that on such a such date at such a such time it was your opinion that you liked Vanilla and my opinion that I liked Chocolate!
It is very important as well to understand the postmodernists conundrum of confusing truth with position. Again it is subjective opinion that governs worship style and place not objective truth on the level the postmodernist wishes. This confusion between Truth and opinion is a major problem for our society.
|
|
|
Post by csobell on Sept 11, 2012 13:19:16 GMT -5
It can be frustrating and fascinating at the same time to discuss modern and traditional views of our God because he is so much more than we can or will understand in this life. Because God may not seem to be consistent in our perspective does not mean that He is not consistent - just that he appears so in our current circumstance. I'm not sure I'm as concerned over the postmodernist wishes - the chaffe is soon forgotten, but some of the discoveries and learnings are fascinating to me. Traditional religion had God creating everything in 6 days - now it looks like it took 13 billion years - evalution was heresey; but now we have evidence and examples of intra-species fossils. I doubt if we have our facts straight yet - but now that we are beginning to see how really big the universe is - I'm more in awe of our God than ever! God knew how little we'd understand today - 13 billion years ago - and he still loved us enough to send His Son to show us that our relationship with him and with each other is whats most important.
|
|
|
Post by kingdomseeker on Sept 11, 2012 13:50:33 GMT -5
Most certainly true! God is immutable and I thank Him because He is! It is man who changes especially when he tries to fill the God shaped void in his heart through religion or material means. Postmodernism stands directly opposed to absolute Truth and as such stands opposed to Jesus being the only Way, the only Truth and the only Life. The postmodernist worldview cannot sustain the claims of Christ. Postmodernism in this respect is very deceptive and alluring especially to our youth. In the religion class that I took a while back every student except me thought that all religions are basically the same! That Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and Islam were all the same as Christianity. This does not bode well for those who wish to share their faith…………….. I would be extremely careful of hitching my horse to science! The church did that in Galileo’s time and paid dearly for it. 13.5 billion years ago has some very important issues when it comes to Scripture especially if we give into the idea of evolution that is being foisted upon us in academia. I will not be surprised if we continue to see a shift away from that paradigm especially with the discoveries in microbiology and astrophysics! Evolution will run its course in the near future and I would not be surprised if those in the future would look back on us with an incredulous look as to why we even fell for such nonsense in the first place……………….
|
|
|
Post by Pastor Michelle on Sept 12, 2012 15:53:21 GMT -5
Haha! Its just like cafe! We have gotten totally off topic and I love it! Dave - I see your point about postmodernism, but I'm not sure I totally agree. I think we need to look at the culture we live in and find ways to help people experience the truth of Christ. Personal experience is the only way we will be able to share the Gospel with them. So, when you say that postmodernism is opposed to Truth - I'm wondering if it's more that postmodernism is opposed to finding one way to the same ultimate Truth. Not that I believe all religions are the same like the people in your class, but rather, I think we, as Christians, have the responsibility to help people fund their way to the Truth - and that everyone gets there is a different way - much like you like vanilla and I like chocolate, each person can experience God differently, that is their real experience of the truth. that is our challenge - to help people experience Christ in their own way - which probably isnt the way their parents experienced Christ! LOL
|
|
|
Post by kingdomseeker on Sept 16, 2012 7:34:44 GMT -5
The modernist demands evidence the postmodernist experience. I was called through the door of experience into the halls of the intellect. Both a necessity however each worldview denies the other. The postmodernist decries the ultimate Truth while the modernist the ultimate experience. We are called to a totality found only in God and this becomes the conundrum. The evidentialist denies the existence of God due to lack of sensual evidence while the postmodernist swallows every god in their quest for experience. Here we find ourselves in the middle attempting to reach a culture coming apart at the seams over this tension. There is a very real possibility here of conflating ideas. ………each person can experience God differently, that is their real experience of the truth is postmodern to the core and as such very dangerous. You meant this within the context of Christianity however when the postmodernist hears this proposition she hears, “no matter what path I take they all lead to God.” The Christian of course views this very differently. She remembers Jesus saying, “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) It would seem from this passage that there are not many ways to experience God. It turns out that there is only one way and that is through Jesus Christ. Jesus explicitly claims that He is the Truth. You point this out at the end however there is an assumption that many people will not accept, simply that Christ is God. We take this a priori however those in the world will not. Herein we find the subtleness, the whisper, the slow boil as postmodernism weaves its way into the church. At bottom experience can be a means however it was never meant to be an end. This unfortunately is where postmodernism leads. We looked puzzled at the church and how people seem to be leaving for other churches. Church shopping or the consumer mentality we call it. If we would just take a moment and think on what postmodernism has done and is doing to the church militant. Many people church hop not because of doctrinal differences or unsound Biblical exegesis they church hop looking for different experiences. They may become bored with their churches style of worship or music or the pastors sermons. In other words they are looking for different experiences. We have become a generation that thinks with our eyes as entertainment has superseded Truth. If postmodernism is not confronted it will continue to eat away at Christ’s body here on earth until very few are left that hold to True Christianity. Barna writes Overall, the current research revealed that only 9% of all American adults have a biblical worldview. www.alliancealert.org/2009/03/09/barna-9-of-american-adults-have-a-biblical-worldview/ If this report is true it seems that the True church is already in the ICU on life support.
|
|