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Post by csobell on Sept 17, 2012 11:48:58 GMT -5
I wouldn't have so much trouble accepting your premise if it weren't for the varying interpretations of the Truth I've heard in my life. We are called to different purposes and differant means (COR 12:21) and as such find that way through Jesus differantly from each other. I have not read as much as you on postmernalism, but I see a continuing "modernizing" of our interpretations ever since Jesus was raised to heaven. If there were never anybody disagreeing with the interpretations of how we establish and maintain a relationship with Jesus, they'd have stoned Martin Luther to death and we'd all still be Catholics. I'm not saying I agree with postmodernalist - I haven't researched enough to know what it is, but I do think it's curious that the Catholics, who assmbled the books of the New Testament, don't attest that it is inerrant word of God. If, by church hopping, someone finds it easier to know Jesus, would that be a bad thing? Becoming a christian involves reaching forward to expand our understanding of the truth , and reaching out to share it with others - I wish I could be better at understanding what I hear and better at not wanting to add "my agenda" when I reach out to others, but I have faith that when I act in love He'll fix my mistakes. I wonder how many other christians fear sharing Jesus because they are led to be unsure of being "sure enough" of the right answers and don't explore using their gifts.
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Post by Pastor Michelle on Sept 19, 2012 15:26:54 GMT -5
You are right that some folks would consider 'different experiences of God' to include other religions. But different experiences of God is different than different WAYS to God. There is, indeed, only one way to God. And when I use the word God, I mean the triune God. When I refer to experiences of God, I mean worship and teaching experiences. Not entertainment, mind you, but experiences, moments where the HS blows and Christ enters the hearts of all. I would never intend to suggest that experience is meant to be the end, it is always the entry point. I dont believe that postmodernism needs to be 'confronted,' rather I think that the church needs to use postmodern concepts to reach the postmodern world with the message of Christ. I think the church is on 'life support' because we have not adapted to the world we live in. We have continued to share the Gospel through reason instead of experience. Even John Wesley would say that the Word of God (The Scriptures) are illuminated by experience, tradition, and reason. We need them all... but most people today will only arrive at a complete understanding of the TRUTH through experience of their own reality, their own experience of Christ in their lives. I think we are basically saying the same thing... except you seem more afraid that we'll go too far off the cliff and I'm afraid we will never be willing to take a leap of faith
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Post by kingdomseeker on Sept 23, 2012 13:00:27 GMT -5
Hi csobell, You are right! Postmodernism by its very nature creates confusion as you allude to by referring to the "many interpretations" of the Truth that are out there. It has as its end the very real possibility of blinding many to the One who is the Truth. Interpretation can and does fall into the same pit of confusion as is evident when those who may disagree counter with "That's just your interpretation" as if that settles the inquiry. How in a postmodern mindset does one point to the Truth of the Gospel if truth is relative? Yes there are different gifts that we have been given but there is One Spirit. This goes directly against the postmodern relativity we see around us. If, by church hopping, someone finds it easier to know Jesus, would that be a bad thing? Which Jesus did they find? Did they find the fuzzy Jesus, the one that over looks sins and is so thankful that we believe in Him or did they find the Jesus who instructs us to hate our very selves and pick up the cross or we cannot be His disciple? Paul writes: For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. (2nd Corinthians 11:4) Who will stand today as Paul did back then? Many are being led astray today by this other jesus the result being: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matthew 7:21-23) You are definitely on to something when you like many wonder about being sure enough to share the faith. I would ask what you are most comfortable with? Maybe it is a job or a sport or a myriad of things that you feel so comfortable with that if the subject was raised you would feel right at home discussing it. There was a time that I was uncomfortable with sharing because I believed that no witness was better than a bad witness. But through certain circumstances the Lord impressed on my heart the need to dig deeper. To make a long story short through study and the gaining of knowledge I became comfortable in sharing our Faith. Paul gives this example just below the passage above. Though untrained in public speaking I am certainly not untrained in knowledge. Indeed we have always made it clear to you in everything. (2nd Corinthians 11:6) Again Paul uses his knowledge of the Greek culture in Acts 17. It seems to me to be not an either/or but a both/and. While we use the gifts that God has given us we are also required to grow in the knowledge of the Lord! (Romans 11:33, Romans 15:14, 2nd Corinthians 10:5, Colossians 1:10) It is by Gods Grace and through the knowledge of the Lord that we become intentional about our faith! Thank you so much for sharing! God Bless!!!
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Post by kingdomseeker on Sept 23, 2012 13:55:05 GMT -5
Hi Pastor Michelle, Yes that is what I thought. The experience of which you speak is found within the frame work of a relationship with God through Christ Jesus. I agree!! I am a bit more hesitant to agree with using postmodern concepts to reach postmodern people however. While it is important to understand where postmodernism departs from reality so that we can address these issues with the postmodernist it maybe ill-advised or I guess very hard to say the least to use someone's concepts to reach them with the Gospel. For instance how would one use relative truth to show that Truth is absolute or use the idea of cultural construction (we believe what we do based solely on the culture in which we find ourselves) to share Christ across culture or take texts for example. Postmodernists believe that what the author meant to convey to the reader is void of meaning. It is up to the reader to determine what the texts means. The postmodernist is to interpret the Scriptures as she see's fit. This touches on csobell's post above. Needless to say God's intent in the Scriptures becomes irrelevant to the postmodernist. After all it is not what God said that is important, instead it is what the postmodernist brings to the table that determines the out come. As we look about us we see hundreds of churches closing their doors each year, we see around 75% of our youth leaving their churches for the world, if Barna is correct only 9% percent of professing Christians in America hold a Biblical worldview, we see our churches being infiltrated by the culture, and on and on. Do we have a reason to be concerned? I pray that this leap of faith is not a leap into the dark............ Thank you as always and I look forward to the cafe this evening! See you there!
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Post by csobell on Sept 26, 2012 8:36:29 GMT -5
good to see you back kingdomseeker...thought you may have given up on me... I agree that the Truth doesn't change but our ability and "readiness" to understand it does. At some point all we are ready for is "He is the Way..." and our journey begins... I know it's out of context, but when the apostles first went out and worked miracles on their own - they came back complaining that there were others doing miracles too. Jesus replied that anyone not against us is for us. None of us is perfect and neither are any individual churches. I have left a church after being a member for over a year because it just seemed too focused on excluding folks than helping them grow and strengthen their relationship with Jesus. I know that Lord, Lord passage and I know we need an accountability to ground our belief in Him, but it seems frustrating that so many "Bible believing" churches seem fixated on the obvious sins rather than helping us to strengthen our relationship with Jesus and lovingly hold each other accountable to the Truth
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Post by kingdomseeker on Sept 27, 2012 10:57:17 GMT -5
No, we are in this together for eternity! I don’t believe that it is an either/or situation. (Either focusing on sin or speaking of Love.) The small word “but” can wield a mighty stroke! I guess the question is not what a certain church does but what Jesus teaches. This of course brings us back full circle.
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Post by csobell on Sept 27, 2012 12:11:08 GMT -5
couldn't agree more - I guess it may be more of an eperiential thing - I've seen so much emphasis from the pulpit on what'll get you to hell and not enough of what'll bring you joy right now and forever. I just think it's been so much easier for me once I stopped trying to avoid sin and started focusing on staying closer and trying to be more like Jesus that I think I've started getting a little better. Now, when I read about Jesus sending the apostle out to perform miracles and love people into faith - I can see him saying" this is so cool...you gotta try this..." If church were the place we refreshed our joy and confirmed that He's still working in our family - maybe there wouldn't be so many churches closing.
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Post by Pastor Michelle on Sept 27, 2012 20:44:36 GMT -5
i love that statement... this is so cool you gotta try this... what would happen if all Christians had that attitude about their faith? how do we recapture that?
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Post by kingdomseeker on Sept 30, 2012 11:12:06 GMT -5
It seems to me that in order to recapture something we have to realize that we have lost it. This can be a hard thing for some to grasp.
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Post by csobell on Oct 2, 2012 11:43:40 GMT -5
Isn't the key to that being able to put someone in a person to see where they could be so they can compare with where they are? It can become hard because bad stuff happens and we hope for a "pass" on the bad stuff and a reward for being good. When we don't see that happening to our satisfaction it's tempting to think God's turned his back on us and we're on our own...then we end up like the prostitute about to be stoned - the question is will we grab rocks; or draw in the sand?
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Post by kingdomseeker on Oct 9, 2012 19:35:41 GMT -5
Isn't the key to that being able to put someone in a person to see where they could be so they can compare with where they are?I'm not sure what is meant here. Do you mean looking at something from another's point of view or should we replace the term person with position? We have to be very careful delineating between our perception of "good" and "bad". Sometimes by trying to avoid what we think is a bad thing in our finite reason we may be avoiding the very thing God has prepared for us to grow closer to Him. Good Friday seems to bring this concept to light. Giving up ones life may not be viewed as a "good" thing to a finite being however it may be a "very good" act in the view of eternity. The martyrdom of millions of people has brought millions more to God through Christ. Of course we witness this today in that while our comfortable nation falls away from God those nations where there is persecution (which we may believe to be "bad") are growing closer to God through Christ. Is God really interested in our satisfaction? It seems to me that our satisfaction is quite limited to our own story. What would happen if we put aside our limited script and spent more time seeking God's larger meta-narrative, His larger script? While postmodernism has a tendency to turn inward to our own script God's Word turns us outward towards the big picture. Here we are no longer concerned with our own satisfaction but with satisfying God. I'm not convinced that either picking up a stone or drawing in the sand is our only two options. There is another which Jesus took many times. Not only did He heal but He also cautioned the person not to sin anymore. While He called the children unto Himself He also told those who did not believe that they were going to be cast into outer darkness. Jesus in this sense is the perfect balance of Love and Holiness.
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Post by kingdomseeker on Oct 10, 2012 8:18:55 GMT -5
I would like to piggyback on the above post some thoughts that are running through my mind about the concept of “loving people into heaven”. One reason we see such an ebb and flow of culture is simply the fact that we are in the fish bowl. How does the fish know he is wet if he has no concept of dryness, in other words if he does not exit the fish bowl. I am thinking of the postmodern idea of love that many have succumbed to. Let’s step out of the fish bowl and consider an example. If someone were to say to you, “If you do not believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will go to hell!!” what would be your response?
While the idea of postmodernism has been around at the least since the late 1800’s it really hasn’t come to the forefront until the 1950’s and 60’s with the existentialist movement. John Paul Sartre was a leader of existentialism in the 60’s and taught basically that through existence we form our essence. In other words we live for the now, the past can be rewritten and the future hasn’t got here yet. What this has to do with the topic at hand is that it is interesting to note that the idea of “loving a person into heaven” runs parallel with the rise of postmodernism and that this trending is primarily in the West. If this is true it becomes obviously clear that postmodern thought plays a very important part in the deconstruction of the Church in the West. The postmodernist may point their finger at the fire and brimstone preachers of the past and blame them for the fall, however if we step out of the fish bowl of postmodernism it becomes quite obvious that the fall of the Church in the West generally and in America in particular runs hand in hand with the rise of postmodernism in the West. For the most part postmodernism has not affected the Church in the East and Middle East and as a result coupled with persecution these Churches are growing.
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Post by kingdomseeker on Oct 10, 2012 8:21:15 GMT -5
While we consider the question above I would like to interject another proposition.
You have a bad pain in the side and visit the doctor hoping for a remedy. The doctor takes an X-ray and notices that there is a growth, a tumor. How would you feel if the doctor decided that it was the loving thing to do to not to tell you the bad news? Or if I did not warn my loved ones that cigarettes cause cancer or that illicit drugs can kill. We would be looked at as unloving because we did not warn others of the inherit dangers associated with these actions. So why is the warning about hell above perceived as intolerant, bigoted, unloving and antisocial while the warnings about cigarettes, drugs, and cancer are considered loving? What is the difference? Is there a difference? At bottom there is no difference. Each has positive truth value. The truth that unless we believe in Jesus we will go to hell for eternity is as true as the fact that cancer, cigarettes and drugs can kill. Again there is no difference. Why is it then that the postmodernist gets stuck on the first proposition but swallows the others whole? As I ruminated on these issues it became clear that there is a difference not in the truth value of each proposition but in the perception of each. The first is purely spiritual and the second is purely physical. The postmodernist in this regard will look at spiritual things as subjective while looking at the physical things as objective. Here in lies a major crack in the foundation of postmodernism. While the postmodernist will say in regard to spiritual matters, “That’s just your truth it’s not mine” (subjectivity) they will turn around and have no problem grasping objective truth when they are offered rat poison to imbibe! This bifurcation of absolute truth is a cancer that is killing the Church in the West.
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Post by kingdomseeker on Oct 10, 2012 8:23:26 GMT -5
So where does the Church go from here?
I am amazed (even though I shouldn’t be) at the subtleness of the evil one. He whispered in the Garden and still whispers to us today. “Just love your friends into heaven” he whispers. “They don’t need to know about sin or even of me.” “Tell them to just believe in Jesus and everything will be OK.” “You can be spiritual without the Church.” This last lie from the evil one through postmodernism is coming to fruition as I write this through the spiritual but not religious movement. (SBNR) Is it any wonder why the orthodox Churches throughout the West are closing their doors? Couple the intrinsic attack on the Church from postmodernism with the extrinsic attack from secular humanism and we have a recipe for disaster. It’s as if God’s people are fiddling while Rome burns…………….
So what can be done? Begin in prayer. Repent and turn from the lies of the evil one. Reject postmodernism and secular humanism and turn back to the Scriptures. Don’t give into the temptation to “love everyone into heaven” but instead Love them enough to tell them that there are consequences to rejecting Jesus. Look to Jesus as the exemplar of the balance between Love and Holiness. In doing this the scales of postmodernism will fall from our eyes and we will be able to see clearly God’s revelation in our lives.
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Post by csobell on Oct 10, 2012 10:11:02 GMT -5
sorry about that - yeah - I meant to say position - to recapture something - we first need to recogize that we've lost it. On your other points - I couldn't agree more - I guess where I'm coming from is that we could try to start at the beginning - do people outside the church even recognize they have a "pain in the side?" I agree that many in this country may not even recognize that "repent" applies to them and that the gap between the faithful and the mainstream is big enough that we face a real challenge relating to one another. Even though there is much evidence that many churches don't seem to be progressing past the "Jesus loves you" stage of Faith development - I still think that's where we need to start. That's where He found me; and as the Love was reinforced - so also was the accountability. That accountability seems to be our struggle, and I think you'd agree that a church family/congregation is the best answer to that need, but we don't really teach how. We need both the reinforcement of all the really neat benefits to our walk - as well as the pitfalls. Part of me wonders if those outside the church accept their "pain in the side" as the "New Normal" and we should be spreading the word that it may not have to hurt anymore - and even if it's may get worse for a while, ultimately it's gonna get better than any of us can grasp. How can we learn to be better at communicating this message to one another and to other churches would seem to be the thing we ought to be praying and fasting for.
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